This generally all applies to the American debates... not so much a worldwide thing.

Abortion ~ Wikipedia

Pro-Life - Abortions killing human beings (against constitution)

Pro-Choice - Abortions are moral (somehow in the constitution)


Anyways, I am no expert on this subject, and so that Is why I haven't bothered to go into to much detail about definitions. But anyways, lets discuss.

I'm Pro-Life. Surprising? Eheh ...

Abortion does only exist so that people can have sex without having to worry about the consequences. Stupid.

Abortion is legal according to the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v Wade, which states that Abortion is legal. Say what you want but for now its legal so stop bitching America.

There are other means to have safer sex, but none are garuntees.

I think if you make a poor decision, you should live with it. Ending a babies life is murder, no matter how you turn it. Of course, there are a few exceptions to this general rule. Women who are sexually abused or raped should have the option to have an abortion if they are pregnant, or if there a medical complications that put the baby or mother at a high risk of death upon child birth, then there should also be the option. Unplanned pregnancy is no reason to kill a baby. If people are going to risk having sex, they should be aware of the consequences and take measures to prevent undesired results.

I'm pro-life for two reasons. The Constitution gives us basic the rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. According to both the declaration of Independence and the Constitution, these rights extend to all people and cannot be taken away by government. A baby having the right to be born is the right to life.

The other reason I am pro-life is that murdering is a sin. The Bible, the Koran, the Torah all state that. If you believe in just about any religion, you will find that murder is widely disliked. Even if you don't believe in God or anything else divine, life is still a sacred thing. People who murder others are widely looked down upon, nobody likes others who kill without at least a decent reason. Abortion is killing your own child because you made a poor decision. You are literally killing your own kid because you messed up, how fair is that?

That's what I mean. And I agree with you on all other parts too.

I'm pro-life.

I'd rather not take the chance of a fetus being a life. That being said, If abortions are made illegal I also want capital punishment made illegal. It only seems fair.

There really is no arguement, unlike most political discussions. There is no data either way, it is only your opinion.

I realized how stupid it was to argue for or against it when a person in one of my classes wrote a two page paper saying "It's murder" repeatedly as their only reason.

This. I don't think I (or any human) has the right to stick their nose into other people's personal business.

Exactly, I don't think the death penalty should be given out to convicts without their consent. Most people would prefer life in prison over death, but if I were given a choice between life in prison or death, I'd choose death. I'm sure there are other people like me out there as well, but I think it should be the convicted felon's choice if they want to live or not, not our choice. The only good arguement I can think of in defense of the death penalty is that the constitution states the basic three rights I mentioned above for abortion are taken away when a person is convicted of a felony, but the constitution also states that cruel and unusual punishment is illegal, so that's a grey area. I think the decision should lie in the hands of the states, not the federal government. Let the people decide if it's acceptable or not.

Eww abortions.
It is no different from killing a baby that you can see and touch. Anybody who has had an abortion is a murderer in my book. If you don't want to be a murderer, don't have sex unless you want a child.

So if someone was trying to killing you in your own home, you wouldn't want the police to come save you? Place yourself in the babies shoes. That baby you want to kill is you in your home being killed, and the police are those that want to save you. You take for granted that you were lucky enough to not be aborted.

I believe that the only acceptable position on abortion is the support for unrestricted, widespread, and totally free access to abortion at every stage of pregnancy throughout the entire world. The decision of whether to abort should be made only by each individual pregnant woman, and every woman has a right to choose. Anyone who disagrees with this position and calls for any kind of barrier to access or suggests that any other party should have any degree of control is a sexist.

You're under the assumption that what's inside a woman during pregnancy is a human being, but it's not. During week 1-2, fertilization hasn't actually occurred yet, and the nervous system (brain and etc) only starts developing enough to control some body functions during week 27.

To me, abortion is a personal decision that both parents-to-be should discuss while thinking about the big picture. Perhaps the mother has HIV so there's a 20-45% chance it will be passed on to the child, maybe they're poor and having a child would mean all three of them going hungry, maybe the mom was an alcoholic and the kid is going to born with fetal alcohol syndrome, the most common known cause of mental retardation. Sometimes abortion is the best option.

I also foresee a huge problem if abortion was banned:

1. Women would seek abortions anyway and end up hurting themselves and their child.
2. Drug dealers would get a hold of the abortion pill and guys would slip it into their girlfriend's or wife's drink.

I'm Pro-Choice...

...and so are you.


Sure I do. But seriously, I agree.


How about you take you own advice? If a woman gets raped and gives birth, the baby would be a living reminder of that. And what would be the odds that the woman has the time or money to properly take care of it? You have to acknowledge that in some cases death is better than life.


What's luck got to do with anything? Unique's mom didn't have an abortion, end of.

I believe in sex-ed.

I don't think any person can decide what is and what isn't human when it comes to this sort of thing. That being said, what if the fetus is alive? It would be murder in that case.

There's the 50% possibility that it isn't, as well. But I think it's better to not murder someone because you decided they weren't alive.

Pro-choice, but it's not an issue I care greatly about.

Although I do believe that any woman who aborts a preventable birth should have to take some form of sex re-education.

Women kill babies every month by not having sexual intercourse.

Stalemate. While I lean pro-life, it also violates a woman's personal liberty to tell her what or what not to do. But, could the same be said about conjoined twins? Is one twin's right to life more important than the other?

Sometimes, there are no easy answers. Unwanted pregnancies will always occur, and so will willful abortions, whether it's legal or not.

I consider it murder, but, there's no easy answer here so I choose to say it's a stalemate.

You can use that logic, yes. I wouldn't say sperm and egg cells are human, but that's my opinion. They only have half the chromosomes that a person has, once they join together and have all 46 (or 47 if you've got Down's) human chromosomes I would count that as a person.

So, then it's okay to get an abortion during the first or second week of pregnancy since the egg has not been fertilized yet?

Is that physically possible? I thought the earliest that an abortion could be done is around the point where you can get an ultra-sound.

Not sure, but women can get medical abortions where they take a pill like Plan B or Mifepristone and the pregnancy is no more.

70,000 women die every year as a result of backstreet abortions in countries with restrictive laws imposed due to religion. Abortion is simply something that cannot be banned, and the pro-life group is anti-sex.

/quoteboat


But, I believe that if the "pregnancy" is terminated before fertilization then it's not an abortion. It'd be birth control in the same way a condom is.

Birth control is no big deal for me as long as it is not actually killing a fetus, all fetus's are life. I do understand that there are a FEW exceptions, but just because there are some very few times when abortion is acceptable that does not prove the rule. Just because you don't want a baby does not mean the baby does not "want" to live. Birth control is only good if it stops fertilization from happening, or if it makes the egg never form.

Aslancsc

I'm indifferent on the Plan B pills. It's the same as condems or birth control pills to me. Abortion to me is when you go in after the baby is already forming and you kill it. That's murder and it's unacceptable unless under the most extreme circumstances.

I'm pro-abortion if the doctor or whoever ends up killing the baby gets sentenced for murder, because that is technically what it is, I don't care what is argued.
So I guess that makes me pro-life.

"Lets say a man ran a red light and crashed into another vehicle. Inside that vehicle was a pregnant woman. She is killed in the resulting crash. The man is charged with vehicular manslaughter on two counts. The woman and the unborn baby. The kicker is the woman is on her way to an abortion to kill the baby anyways."

This would actually happen. The accidental killing would be ruled man slaughter or homicide even if only the baby died, while the intentional killing wouldn't. Moral or immoral aside, how does that make sense in a legal stand point?

It doesn't make sense.

I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.
- Ronald Reagan

Abortion can either be two things - right or wrong. One may say "under extreme and rare circumstances abortion is okay" but this goes against logic. Murder (the killing of an innocent human being) is always wrong. Someone cannot create, in the depths of their immagation, a plausible case that murder will be okay.
So the arguement goes like this...

1. Murder is wrong.
2. Abortion is murder.
3. Therefore abortion is wrong.

Number 1 is indisputable for the morally upright person; the only person I would have to argue #1 with is a cannibal. So the huge debate is #2.

At the time of many abortions there certain things the baby has already developed:
Day 18-20 - The foundations of the brain, spinal cord, and nervous system are laid
Day 21 - the heart begins to beat.
Days 22 - Eyes develop and ears form.
Day 40 - The baby can move.
Day 44 - Brain activity is detectable
Day 52 - The baby can make movements like a yawn, stretch, ect
Week 8 - Every organ is present.
Week 11 - The baby can smile
Week 12 - The baby can swallow
Month 4 - The baby can suck its thumb and feel pain
Month 6 - The baby can hear
Month 7 - The eyes begin to open
Month 9 - The baby is born.

Abortion stops a beating heart. Stops any brain activity. Causes extreme pain to the baby. And in the end the baby is most certainly dead.
Any rational person cannot deny that abortion is murder.

To accept 1 + 2 makes #3 undeniable.

And let's lay this out on the table - Abortion Methods:

For example, there is Suction-Aspiration where the cervical muscle ring must be paralyzed and stretched open. The abortionist then inserts a hollow plastic tube with a knife-like edge into the uterus. The suction must tear the baby's body into pieces so that the placenta can be cut from the uterine wall and everything be sucked out into a bottle.

We also have Dilation and Curettage and this is similar to a suction procedure except a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife, is inserted into the uterus, the baby and placenta are then cut into pieces and scraped out into a basin. Bleeding is usually very heavy with this method.

Or, if you want to abort a baby another way you can choose to have a Dilation and Evacuation. This type of abortion is done after the third month of pregnancy and the cervix must be dilated before the abortion. Usually Laminaria sticks are inserted into the cervix, when inserted they absorb moisture and expand, thus enlarging the cervix. A pliers-like instrument is inserted through the cervix into the uterus and then the abortionist must grasp a leg, arm or other part of the baby and, with a twisting motion, remove it from the rest of the body. This continues until only the head remains. Finally the skull (depending on size) must be broken down and pulled out. The nurse must then reassemble the body parts to be sure that all of them were removed.

And lastly on this list we have the Dilation and Extraction which is used on mid and late term babies, from 4 to 9 months gestation. The abortionist inserts forceps through the cervical canal into the uterus and grasps one of the baby's legs, positioning the baby feet first, face down. The child's body is then pulled out of the birth canal except for the head which is too large to pass through the cervix. (Remember: the baby is still alive at this point). The abortionist then sticks surgical scissors into the base of the skull and spreads the tips apart to enlarge the hole. A suction catheter is inserted into the baby's skull and the brain is sucked out, finally killing the baby. The skull collapses and the baby's head passes easily through the cervix.

Those are most of the abortion techniques in a nutshell.

Disturbing, isn't it.

pro-choice. Let them do what they want. They have to deal with the knowledge that they murdered a child.

Pro-slavery. Let them do what they want. They have to deal with the knowledge that they are racist and envslaving someone because of the color of their skin.

or more relative -

Pro-murder. Let them do what they want. They have to deal with the knowledge that they take innocent lives for no sane reason.

It's the responsibility of those who are capable to uphold and protect the innate rights of all human beings, especially the right to life; which all unborn children have.

I would like to make my input.

Every baby you kill is and should be considered an act of murder. I see it as that.

Everyone is worried about having sex nowdays but aren't ready to face consequences for their actions. I understand if the mother is in a tight spot sometimes but it isn't a matter of death. In a matter of death you have a reason to save a life rather then letting two die. It is as simple as that.

What an irrelevant statement.


Of course not, because you're tweaking terms. I could bring up the "self defense" argument, but you'd say that isn't murder. But in some cases, that's what abortion is; self defense. The life of the fetus is a threat to the life of the mother. I'm not pro-choice because I think would-be mothers should get abortions willy-nilly. I think they should have the option when it's necessary.



Guess that makes me a cannibal. If you want to say "murder is wrong my definition," then of course it's always wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just ask that you look at it from both sides. A woman is getting an abortion because her baby is going to kill; what would she think of your point of view?


Of course the baby is dead, that's the goal. The first three statements aren't constants. The last is an opinion containing a word with an apparently debatable definition.


No, not really. It's no more brutal than what we do to our live stock. And guess what? We need to kill those in order to live too.

I lean towards pro-life. I believe, in only the most extreme cases (sexual abuse, there's probably others I can't think of right now, still early), abortion is okay. However if someone goes and get's pregnant through consensual sex, then abortion shouldn't be an option for them.

@I, I wouldn't put you under for abortion if you just think that when the mothers life is in threat the baby needs to go. Catholics are supposed to be against abortion except when the mothers life is at stake and it would kill them both. They are not for abortion (or are supposed to). So... yea.

@PC, I see the reason why someone wold be pro-choice but seriously. You have a choice before "pro-choice." Just plainly don't have sex if you can't deal with a baby. I know people do it anyways and it will always be that way but it just shows how people are not strongly disciplined. I just don't see how it inflicts upon liberties when you know about it before hand. It's like joining the military and say that you have to have all your liberties. You knew about it.

Pro-Choice, people have a right to make their own decision.

Ok, so if I decide to kill someone that's OK because it's my own decision? "... right to make their own decision"

And people still have the right to decide whether they want to have sex or not, so making abortion illegal wouldn't really remove someones right to make decisions.

People who are pro-life have never had sex, and probably never will until they get married. Then they will have two or more kids, and come to regret their decision of having kids as they get older.

Max, either you don't comprehend the responsibility of parenthood, or you don't get horny.

Anyways, I'm pro-choice, and even though I think abortion is extremely immoral, I think the pro's of pro-choice outweigh the cons of pro-life. Mainly because many women will kill themselves while attempting to an abortion on their own, and others who have their child will neglect it and end up in prison.

I find America is lacking proper sex-ed ressources and education.

When you compare accidental birth rates in Canada to the states, Canada's number is like a mouse to an elephant. (per 1000 people)

Why? Because we teach the proper things that you should know before engaging in sex such as how to put on a condom properly and best methods to not become pregnant. Condoms are sometimes dispensed in school bathrooms if judged as needed. As well as all the risks of having sex.

Also are teached are methods of knowing if you've become pregnant and where to go to get an "emergency pill" to make you have your period early. Voila, problem solved.

Generally people are more sex savvy and competent enough to know when they're preggers and have it ejected before it's even a feotus.

"But Gumbo? Doesen't EVERYONE just do it ALL the time then? That's not good either!" -Commonly used arguement.
Intimacy is also taught in school, and the importance of only doing it with people you truly love and trust. Life lessons taught before finding them out the hard way really.

So none of this is really a problem here, and STD's are also kept in check.

* As for american issues, I am definitely pro-choice under total power of the said mother. At some point though, farther than 3 months, you should really just let the baby live and put it up for adoption IMO.

I would say it isn't murder because...it isn't murder. There is a difference between killing and murder. Both are ending a life but in murder the life itself is significant and innocent; but killing is an act with no relevance to the life itself. In self-defence you're defending yourself and you potentially may kill someone, but this person isn't innocent (because if they were then you wouldn't be defending yourself in the first place).



If the life of the mother is at stake then do we purposefully take one innocent life to save another? I think not. Murder is murder. If a mother and child are being threatened by a serial killer and this killer says that one life will be taken and the other spared; what decides who lives and who dies? The mothers survival is being threatened by her child living so the smart thing to do (according to those of pro-choice) is to have the child killed so that she will be spared and keep on living. This is obviously not a moral decision.
Are we proud of a woman who murders her own child to save herself?



There are virtually no conditions that threaten the mother's life in which abortion is a medically recognized treatment. Many times a mothers life is being threatened and treatment is done to save the mother and in this treatement it indirectly and unintentionally kills the baby - but EVERY EFFORT should be made to save both patients (mother and child) and never should they intentionally murder the baby.
Little fact: Between 1967 and 1990, only 151 abortions have been carried out to save the mother's life, a figure amounting to 0.004% of all abortions.




And to be dead means that life no longer exists. For life to no longer exist within implies the obvious that life had existed before. For life to exist before this last state constitutes that something was done between life and no life to end the life. This thing that was done in between the two states was the intentional killing of the innocent - murder. So, point still remains - abortion is murder.



And because they are not constants that makes them irrelevant in all cases? That would be irrational.



An opinion? What's your point? It's my opinion that I think black people didn't like slavery; and it's a black person's opinion that slavery is wrong. Because those are opinions does that justify slavery?
And it really isn't an opinion anyways. It's a statement that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt.



Human life is far more important and valuable than animal life. But because people do it to animals that makes it right to do it to humans? I think not.

"Your freedom ends where my nose begins."
A not so common aphorism, but a saying with a lot of weight.

You can have all your freedoms up until your liberties start impeding on my liberties. When you say that people have a right to make their own decision, you are denying the right to life of the unborn.

Animal life is just as important and valuable as human life, what makes killing livestock justifiable is the byproducts these animals provide are near-necessities in agricultural-based lifestyle and more importantly said livestock are executed in a humane and painless fashion. Embryos, fetuses and unborn babies do not provide any byproducts and execution methods are morally dubious.

Actually, I think that they may have outlawed that method of abortion, stating that it is unethical. (or at least that is what my teacher told me when I asked her about it)



Dude, do you really think that all slavery was done in the south, that all of the reason for the civil ware was because of slavery, and that all slaves were Africans and therefore dark skinned (and apparently from your statement that slaves were enslaved because of the fact that they had a different color skin)? If you think even one of those please PM me, OK?

Oh, but at the same time you're denying the right of the mother's choice. I'm just pro choice because I try to envision myself in the mother's position.



So you're somehow more mature if you choose not to have sex? Somehow having sex makes someone less disciplined? I don't see the logic in that; it's like saying you shouldn't drive unless you're ready for a crash, nothing is wrong with doing something for personal pleasure/needs.

Yes, we deny the mothers choice of abortion just as much as we deny the murderer's choice to murder. What you're saying is that we can't respect the victim because that would deny the murderer's choice. Of course there's a difference, since the mother is pregnant, but being pregnant is not just a burden (if it's an unwanted child), it's also a great responsibility.

And yes, it is more mature to wait with sex till you're ready to have children. It is mature to understand that you shouldn't have sex if you're not ready to have a child ... And it's not like saying "you shouldn't drive unless you're ready for a crash". Not at all. I don't know where you got that from.

Like PC, I consider it murder, but the woman has the right to choose.

Don't support it, never will.

Give some reasons why. If we all just agreed to disagree, this would be pointless.

Lawl and Mike470, how can you justify murder? You said you look at it through the mother's eyes, now look at it through the unborn babies eyes? Wouldn't you want a chance at life? You have a point about having sex mike, but the whole point is to do it safely. Use a condom, use birth control, and you never have to kill your own child.

Overall, I believe in pro-life, and if I ever get a girl pregnant, I would absolutely flip if she even considered an abortion, but since abortion is so case-specific, I don't think it should be outlawed. However, it should not be allowed to be preformed as a measure of birth-control, but instead as medical procedure to ensure the safety of the mother if the baby is likely going to cause high risk medical complications in pregnancy or childbirth. Killing healthy babies cannot be justified, but terminating a pregnancy that will kill or disable both the mother and the baby at least makes sense.

Many disabled people lead great lives, disabled newborns are not killed because they don't have the same potential as a normal baby, why should disabled unborns be terminated?

We're not denying the mother anything. She had her choice. To have sex (and thus produce a baby) or not. She chose to have sex. That was her CHOICE.
Garanaw has the perfect example. We deny the murderer's choice to murder. We deny the rapist the choice to rape someone. So I honestly see no reason why we shouldn't deny a mother the right to have her baby murdered.


Just "having sex" isn't immature or undisciplined. But having sex, ignoring the possible outcome (a baby) and not doing everything you can to stop that possible outcome (this is, if you don't want a baby) - is very much immature. If someone basically plans whether they want a baby, are ready for a baby and will be happy with a baby; then they wouldn't be getting an abortion in the first place.
If someone says they DON'T want a baby and then have unsafe sex anyways, this obviously shows a complete lack of maturity.

Of course everyone pro-choice person comes up with uncommon circumstances that they say call for an abortion to be done, and pro-life people must reason with it.
1) Rape.
Just over %1 of all abortions are "hard case" abortions and these include abortions done because of rape or incest. 1%! Also, why punish the innocent party? The baby has nothing to do with the act of crime the rapist commited, don't punish the baby!

2) Wanted a baby, something huge happened (husband died/whatever), don't want a baby anymore.
You made the choice to have a baby. You didn't plan on needing to change your mind, but nevertheless - if you really cannot handle a baby then give it to a children's home. Give it to your parents (the baby's grandparents). Do something. But WHO THE HELL came up with the IMMORAL idea to just "get rid of it" by killing it!?

Common sense. It honestly is. All human life, no matter the age, is equally valuable. All men were created equal. To abort a baby is equal to shooting an innocent little 4 year old girl playing on a playground.

Human value, and a person's right to life, does not depend on whether they are wanted by someone or not. It is an unchanging standard; all human life is equally valuable.